At SMI, we are fans of Louisville-based Further Still Ministries, which “exists to encourage and lead men to lives of depth and influence, becoming disciple-makers out of the overflow.”

I had the opportunity to be on its Solid Steps radio program recently, joining hosts Kurt Sauder and Chad Russel for a discussion about navigating the various financial challenges brought on by today’s pandemic.

Among the specific topics:

  • Encouragement and guidance for those most directly impacted through a job loss
  • Should someone who has lost their income, or has seen it reduced, still give?
  • What about retirement? Is it even biblical? And how might we see our plans for the future when the future seems so uncertain?

To listen to the conversation, click below. A full transcript follows.

Transcript

Chad Russell:  Hello and welcome to Solid Steps Radio. My name is Chad Russell and that, that right there is Kurt Sauder. He is the man over at Further Still Ministries. And We do this little show called Solid Steps Radio, and we, if you've never heard us before, we are a radio ministry that basically we talk to men and we tell men, Hey guys, you're not fulfilling your destiny as a man if you're not walking with Jesus Christ.

Now that being said, everybody's on different paths of where they are in their walk with God. Some have not started, some have been doing it for decades. So we want to talk about things in men's lives that you probably are not talking about. It's easy to talk about sports, weather, and politics.

But today we want to talk about money and a pandemic and —

Kurt Sauder:  One of your favorite topics.

Chad Russell:  Right. Pandemics? (laughter) Talking about money and that idea of sometimes not having enough, sometimes having too much we think, or what do we do with money — and what is God doing in a pandemic when it comes to our money.

Kurt Sauder:  Well, you know, the Bible says a lot about money and Matt Bell, it’s great to have you back on our show.

Matt Bell:  Really good to be with you, Kurt and Chad.

Kurt Sauder:  It's really a joy. And by the way, just, just FYI for you, Matt — so when I said to Chad, "Hey, I’ve got Matt coming in. We're going to talk about money again." And you kind of… It has nothing to do with Matt. It has everything to just talking about finances.

Chad Russell:  You can talk about anything, but when you start talking about finances and you start getting in people's checkbook. Now you're starting to get into their heart. 

Kurt Sauder:  Hey, that's kind of personal.

You work with Sound Mind Investing. What in the world is that?

Matt Bell:  Sound Mind investing has been around for 30 years now. It's our 30th anniversary. I've been with the company since 2012, so eight years. It's a Christian company based in Louisville that helps people with investing. We don't invest money for people, but we have strategies. People subscribe to our newsletter and they avail themselves of the strategies that are all mechanical, unbiased. We're not giving opinions about where the market's going to go. It's all a very mechanical rules-based approach to investing. We're serving God's people by helping them with what I think is, you know, money as you guys are saying, it's a very troubling topic for a lot of people. But I think investing is one of the most complicated topics for many people within that broader topic of money. And so it's really a blessing to us to be able to come alongside people and help give some hopefully wise counsel in that area.

Kurt Sauder:  My good friend, Austin Pryor started that business — and ministry, really — 30 years ago. And what's your role there?

Matt Bell:  My title is managing editor. I mean, we're a small organization, so it's a lofty title but only because it's a small organization. There are several of us that do a lot of the writing for the newsletter and we're writing on the blog throughout the week, each week. So I do a lot of writing about financial topics and wherever we can, we're leaning on God’s principles to encourage people in the really practical application of those principles. And then I get involved in a few other things too. We created a small group study last year called Multiply. I was pretty involved in the development of that.

Kurt Sauder:  And you've authored a few books, but I want to highlight your latest is called Money and Marriage. Talk about that just briefly.

Matt Bell:  That’s one that was on my heart to write for a long time, because money is such a troubling topic within marriage. I mean, depending on who whose statistics you believe, it's, it's really one of, if not the primary cause of divorce. And so I wanted to create a book that's specifically for either engaged or newly married couples. So people that are early in their journey of marriage and how do we come together as husband and wife financially? How do we get on the same page together? Because there's a lot of stuff in our backgrounds, there's temperament differences, there's all kinds of things that can help a marriage run off the rails, really. And so the book is, is very practical. It's filled with biblical counsel on that topic, but very practical, especially for people that are, that are early in the marriage journey.

Kurt Sauder:  Let's now jump into, you know, what we really want to talk about today in the middle of this COVID pandemic. Matt, we've got folks who are listening right now who are struggling in a variety of different ways. Some are unemployed, completely, some have lost jobs. Some have no income or minimal income coming in. Talk to them from a biblical financial perspective.

Matt Bell: I think with money in general and in a tough financial situation in specific, I think the tendency is to run to a solution really quickly and we'll get to some solutions. We’ll get really practical here if you'd like to. But I think the place to start is with God's word and time in prayer. I thought about five different aspects of encouragement I'd love to give people that are in that situation that might might be listening right now. I'd love to point them into the word. And so 1st Peter 5:7 says, “Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.” I remember a time years ago when I had to go in for a procedure, as they say, you know, surgical procedure, and that morning somebody texted me, a friend texted me those words from that verse from first Peter, and it was such an encouragement. It was such a weight off my shoulders to be reminded that the God of the universe invites me, encourages me, asks me, ask us, to come to him with our concerns. And so I think that's a good starting place.

A second word of encouragement from God's word would be from Matthew 6. Remember the promises that God knows your needs. He's not blind to what's happening in your situation. He knows your needs. And if you read and meditate on the verses in Matthew 6, you'll see that God promises to provide for you. That's not just theory. That's not just, you know, spiritual happy talk. That's true. And so I would, I would point people there.

Kurt Sauder: Can I just interject there? So that's, “Seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you.” What are these things he's talking about?

Matt Bell: Yeah, it's very material. I mean, he talks about, don't worry about the clothes you're going to wear, the food you're going to eat, because he knows you need these things. But as you just said, seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added on to you. It's a strong reminder, especially in a time like this, for someone who's hurting.

Next I would say to ask for God's wisdom. There’s a lot of crazy ideas floating around in our culture these days. And certainly that also includes about money and what to do in a tough time. Seek God's wisdom. In the book of James, it says, “If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously without finding fault, and it will be given to you.” And so go to God and ask for his wisdom, ask for his Word to be spoken into your life in very clear and tangible ways about what should you do in this situation that you're finding yourself in now.

Kurt Sauder: And may I interject again there too? You know, Proverbs 13 says he who walks with the wise grows wise. And one of the ways we gain wisdom is through God's words at the end, approaching the Lord through prayer. But many times it's people right around us who have the experience and have been down the road a little bit farther than we have.

Matt Bell: That’s right. I'd love to unpack a little bit more the idea of coming to others with our needs in just a second or two, but yeah, absolutely.

The next thing is to make your request specific. So we're asking for God's wisdom overall. Of course he knows our needs. He knows them before we give voice to them, before we come to him in prayer. And yet I think there is something good and healthy about coming to him in prayer about our specific needs and giving voice to them.

In Philippians 4, it says, “Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with Thanksgiving, present your request to God, and the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.” I think there are two kind of odd words in those verses.

One is the word, “anything.” Don’t be anxious about anything. You know, there's plenty to be anxious about right now in the world, if you look around. Don't be anxious about anything. And then I find it kind of interesting that it says to bring your requests to God with Thanksgiving. So, you know, here we are, Lord, we're hurting in this specific way, and you're asking me to come to you with Thanksgiving. I think that's just a great encouragement to look around and to see the many blessings we have because contentment comes from… I think practicing gratitude leads to contentment. And so even in the midst of very difficult circumstances, again, remembering God's promises to provide for us, knowing that he knows our situation and what we need, we can come to him, yes, with our requests, but with a spirit of Thanksgiving as well in the midst of all that.

Kurt Sauder: And then number five is?

Matt Bell: Yeah, number five is going to tag off that fourth one. And that is specifically to give thanks in all circumstances from 1st Thessalonians 5:18. So I think that's just a good reminder. It's easy to get bogged down or to be weighed down by the concerns of this world. But I think that spirit of Thanksgiving just does something to our outlook and our disposition and puts us at the feet of Christ, where we're receptive. We’re better attuned to his speaking into our lives,

Kurt Sauder: Even when we don't maybe feel like it. Give thanks in all circumstances for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus. I'm reminded what the psalmist says. His praise will always be on my lips. And sometimes that’s easier said than done, but in the midst of no income or little income or no job and pandemic, and maybe even a health crisis in the midst of that, the Lord says, “Cast all your cares on me and give thanks. I love you. I'm taking care of you.”

Matt, you mentioned you've got some practical things that you wanted to share with our listeners. Let's let's hear some practical things about in the midst of COVID-19 in the midst of struggle. What else, what else you got?

Matt Bell: Here’s the first thing. I love giving credit where credit is due and Larry Burkett, the late Larry Burkett, really impacted my life. He was a prolific writer on biblical money management and a radio program host in his own right. One of the things he always said when someone's in financial difficulty is to bring an awareness of your situation to others.

It's very difficult to do that in our culture, our social media culture, where we're prone to presenting the best version of ourself on Facebook and Instagram and other places, very difficult to acknowledge or to admit we need help. And yet his encouragement I think is so right. It’s to go to other believers, go to your church, to make your needs known and your situation known. Because if you think about it, for someone who's in a position to help, and we're called to help a brother in need, right? That's scripture. For someone in a position to help, that's usually a joy for them. And so to not let people know about the needs is possibly to tob somebody else of the joy of coming along side of you.

Kurt Sauder: That's exactly what I was thinking: rob the person of the privilege of giving to you — because they they're looking for that opportunity!

Matt Bell: That's right.

Kurt Sauder:  There are actually people who are looking for opportunities to give resources to those in need. And if they don't know about it, they can't.

Matt Bell:  Yeah. Because for people that are still employed through this pandemic, chances are their financial situation has actually improved because they're not spending as much on things like entertainment or vacations or gasoline as they're working from home, or restaurant meals or those sorts of things. Behind the headlines, there are people that are doing even better than they were doing before. And it would be a blessing to them to be able to come alongside a friend who has a specific need right now,

Kurt Sauder:  I just talked with a dear friend who has a small business. And he said, because of this pandemic — just the nature of our business — our income compared to a year ago, right now we've made more income than all of last year combined. And they want to give, because God's called them to give and they maybe even have the spiritual gift of giving. And they want to give.

Matt Bell:  And like I said, for someone to be able to do that, it's a blessing to them. And so make your needs known, you know, get past the discomfort of doing that and make your needs known.

Then there's just all kinds of other practical things we can do. I mean, a lot of mortgage companies and other lenders have made provision. They know a ton of their people, a ton of their customers, are hurting right now. They've made provision, they've made decisions. It's not a case-by-case thing. They’ve made provision. And so get in touch.

Somebody that is owed money from somebody else, what they want, if that person that owes them money is in trouble, what they want is communication. They want to hear from them, and they've got programs. And so if you're having a hard time making your mortgage payment, if you've got a vehicle loan or student loans, if you've got other things like that, get in touch with those folks and see what provision is being made. Be sure to find out the fine print. Find out will interest continue to accrue if I defer payments for a little bit. So at least, you know what you're getting into, but avail yourself of what help is currently uniquely available.

Kurt Sauder:  Pick up the phone and ask and say, hey, this is the dynamic I'm under right now. And I need some help. And what can you, as a bank, as a  money lender, do to help me?

Matt Bell:  One of the things we like to teach our kids is it's amazing what you can get if you just ask. And so we talked about some of the big things like mortgages and, you know, vehicle payments and things like that. But other things too. We had a certain service we subscribed to and they were doing an increase — it’s a security system for our house. They were going to do an increase in the monthly payment. They let us know about that, so I called. I said, hey, we've been a longtime customer. What can you do for me on this upcoming increase? They said, don't worry. We’ll take it off. It’s a little thing, but lots of little things can really add up.

Kurt Sauder:  Any other practical things?

Matt Bell: There can be a prioritization process of where should you look for some money to get you through the current situation. If you have an emergency fund, that would be an obvious first place to look. A lot of people don't have an emergency fund. If you've got a Roth IRA, your contributions can come out any time without any kind of penalty. New provisions have been made for 401(k) plans for being able to access loans to a greater degree, a greater amount of money, and those sorts of things. So look for those kinds of things.

And when it comes down to something as specific as a 529 plan versus a retirement plan, I'd actually encourage you to look to the 529 plan first. Yes, you'll pay some penalty on the money if you take out the earnings portion of that money. But at the end of the day, kids could get a loan for college; it’s hard to get a loan for your later years. And so I would prioritize that.

Life insurance, if you have a cash-value life insurance policy, you can get a loan against that cash value at a pretty favorable rate. So there are places to turn for these kinds of things.

Kurt Sauder:  I'm reminded of what I think I've heard on the radio before, you know, look outside the box even of your employment? Do you have any thoughts on that?

Matt Bell:  For sure. I mean, if you're out of work, you may be looking for a specific type of job. I think humility needs to rule the day. And so, you know, take a job that you might be overqualified for if it's available just for a season of time, because we have a mandate to provide for our families. And so, open yourself up to what might be possible that you might not have considered.

Another really practical thing: There are a lot of two-car families around. Do you need both? If you could get rid of one vehicle, think about the savings on insurance and maintenance and gasoline and all those sorts of things. We were a one-car family for a while. I counseled somebody back where we used to live in Chicago about this. They never thought of it before. It never occurred to them. Just took for granted that they need to be a two-car family, but they realized we actually could go down to one. It might be a little more inconvenient sometimes, but we could actually make it work. And when you look at the savings from that, that can be significant.

Kurt Sauder:   It is. That could be significant 


Chad Russell:  Chad Russell and Kurt Sauder. And we are talking with Matt bell about money, and especially during a pandemic.

Kurt Sauder:  We’ve been talking about those who have struggled economically in this time. Talk just a moment about those who have been actually super blessed. This pandemic has actually kind of skyrocketed their income. Talk to them a moment.

Matt Bell:  Sure. I would say a couple things to someone in that situation. You know, the Bible says that we've been blessed in order to be a blessing. And so if there is an increase, if there is increased margin through less needed spending right now, I think a biblical first response to that is where can I be a blessing with that? How can I serve people through how I've been blessed? How can I give to certain causes that can make a difference?

I think that'd be a great starting point. And then I think, I don't know who it was. I think various people through history have been given the credit for this, but somebody said don't ever waste a crisis. And, and I think that for someone who is in this pandemic, we're all in this crisis, but for someone who's a little more financially solid right now, there's still the need to not waste this crisis because maybe God is saying something else in your life about what you should be doing with your resources.

Maybe you just need to get your resources more organized. This might be a time to create a budget. I’m a budget geek. I love budgets. I think budgets are the most powerful, most wonderful financial tool ever invented because they give you a sense of now you're managing, you're being proactive with the money that we've been blessed with and it helps in your marriage. It gets you and your wife on the same page financially.

So if you've never used a budget, this would be a great time for that. And then I sense people in the situation you're describing, Kurt, also have a little more margin these days in terms of time, you know, we're not running kids to their sporting events and other things right now. And so use that time to negotiate some of the monthly service fees you've got. You may be able to create even more margin to be a blessing through that process. And so I think this is an opportunity to, in a really practical sense, do a fine-tooth comb review of your finances and get to some of those “someday one-day” sorts of financial chores, you've been meaning to address.

And I think it's an important time to be going to the Lord and saying, Lord, I am in a good situation. Now use me, send me. And what would that look like?

Kurt Sauder:  People in January didn't know what the name COVID meant had never entered their vocabulary. Then all of a sudden it does. And now I'm talking to people who are in ministry who say now that trajectory of my life has changed for the better — spiritually-speaking — ministry opportunities. Just some doors God has opened up. And I want to ask you two-part question. One, from your experience with maybe people, your clients who you've been talking with and the question is this: are people going to now come out of this pandemic going, hey, wait a minute. I've been working 20, 30, 40 years to build up this nest egg so I could retire in comfort. But now they see all of this around them. And should some people be saying, Hey, wait a minute. This money that God has blessed me with, and I have years worth of money, technically speaking in the bank or in an investment to be able to help my life be comfortable. And now they're going, maybe I should use this money for the kingdom because instead of me paying for the Lake house, I might need to be paying for someone else's house or something like that.

What's your thoughts, or maybe personal experiences, with your clients. And then, bigger picture, people may be seeing their retirement different.

Matt Bell:  I love that. What a great question. And there's no one size fits all answer to that, but it reminds me of a conversation I just had in our small group recently about James, going back to the book of James, where he says, you know, "Look you who say today or tomorrow we're going to this place and we'll spend a year there and we'll make money. Well, you don't even know what's going to happen tomorrow. You know, your life is a mist." And so he says in there, you should say, "If it is God's will, we will do this or that."

And so I think it’s easy to get that planning process out of whack. I mean, we’re encouraged to plan. The Bible says the plans of the diligently to profit. And yet, sometimes I think we, as was said in our small group the other night, somebody said, sometimes we make our plans and then we want God to bless those plans.

You know, we've got it in reverse order. We should be seeking God's will, trying to make plans that hopefully are in concert with his will. So will people rethink their retirements? I hope so. I can't say I'm hearing specific stories of people that have done a 180 on their plans, but I think it is a great time right now to stop and say, wait, I've envisioned a certain future. And I've taken for granted a certain future that may not be there. And so we should be coming with humble hearts to the Lord and saying, Lord, are you redirecting me? Are you redirecting my thoughts and the resources you've blessed me with?

Kurt Sauder:  So really, being prayerful and saying, coming with open hands, and saying "Lord, you've given this money to me. Now what do you want me to do with it. 

 It goes back to the stewardship piece of, you know, we don't own any of it. It's all God’s. He owns everything and we're just a steward. We're just partnering with God and we need to be available.

Matt, I shot you an email, and we were just having a little dialogue about retirement and specifically, you know, the Bible doesn't really talk about retirement. So, talk for a few minutes about retirement from a biblical perspective. And what does that mean? What does that look like? Just your thoughts.

Matt Bell: Sure. So the Bible actually does mention retirement one time in the book of numbers, as it pertains to Levitical priests. But you’re right. I mean, for most of us it doesn't speak to retirement. You don't see examples of Paul stopping and ministry at a certain point and relaxing the rest of his life. But here's the thing. In a really practical way, the trends in the culture are that more and more people are saying, I'm going to retire later. I'm going to maybe not retire. Either I need the money or I just like my work and I'm going to stay useful. And that sort of thing.

And yet the reality is the vast majority of people today still do retire around age 65. And the hard reality for many people is that they end up retiring earlier than they planned because of difficult circumstances, health reasons — their own health fails or the health of a loved one, where they need to spend time caring for a loved one.

Or they get downsized out of a job and it’s tough to find work in your sixties, that kind of thing. And so I think as stewards of God's resources, where I've landed on the retirement issue is that the ideal would be to prepare spiritually, vocationally, emotionally, to continue working as long as we possibly can, as long as God is directing us to that work that we're doing. And yet prepare financially to retire earlier than we think we're going to. Because again, as good stewards, we can look at the realities of life and say, hey, I need to provide for my family. Not just right now, when I have an income, but also down the road when I might not.

Kurt Sauder: So yeah, the Bible would speak to that in saying be like the ant. Store up, be prepared for the rainy day, be prepared for the stormy day, be prepared for, you know, in our world now the pandemic, right. Be wise that it's not, you might not always have this solid income coming in.

Matt Bell: If you think about the current environment from an investing standpoint, it's been scary for a lot of people because from mid February to mid-March the market entered a bear market so quickly. It took 16 trading days. And then it's rocketed back up again. And so again, this might be a time to look at how we're investing and I really encourage people to make sure you're investing from an objective perspective, that you’ve got a process involved in your investment decisions, and that it’s something you understand. I like to think the acid test is, can you tell a 12-year-old, can you explain it to them? What are we investing in? And why are we investing in this particular thing? We happen to have a 12-year-old under roof, so I can test that out. But if you don't have one, you can borrow one and see how well you understand your investments.

I think that falls within the mix of things we were talking about to evaluate right now. Did the market scare me this year? Did that cause me to go to cash earlier this year? And so that would be another piece to evaluate right now.

Kurt Sauder:  Talk to us real quickly about, you know, when we get a stimulus check do we tithe on that? What if we don't have, you know, much income? What if we have half income? Do we give when we're struggling to pay our bills?

Matt Bell: Just all these easy topics, right? I would say a couple of things. I would point to certain principles. Proverbs three nine teaches us to give from the first fruits of our increase. And so I look at that word increase and I say any resources coming into our life, that's where the first fruits are to be given to God's work. And so whether that's inheritance, whether that's stimulus check, whether that's, you know, income, commissions, whatever that is, my understanding and my conviction in this area is that we give off the increase.

When people are struggling, I mean, God knows our needs. He doesn't want us to, you know, if it comes down to a choice between providing for our family and giving some, of course I think in God's heart is to say, hey, take care of your family.

But I do think again, back to a principle, I think when people are struggling, but they do have income. I go back to the story of Cain and Abel, that one of their gifts was acceptable to the Lord and the other one was not. And the one that was acceptable was a choice gift. I think there's the principle, the choice gift. And so you may give a very small, actual amount of money, but to whatever degree is possible, I would encourage, I would lean towards saying give something. Of course it isn’t that God needs the money, but I think we need that act of worship to be giving tangibly of the resources God has blessed us with as an act of worship. So that would be my heart and conviction on that.

Kurt Sauder: Yeah. I guess what you're saying, Paul writes in second Corinthians nine about this whole thing of living with generosity, right?

Matt Bell: Yeah, absolutely. And one of my favorite stories, there's a couple I know back in Chicago that when they got married, she brought 50-grand of non-mortgage debt into the marriage. He called it a reverse dowry. He had a good attitude about the whole thing, but it took them years to get out of debt. And two things about it. Number one, he said, and this is leadership and action to me, every time she would say, I feel so bad about my debt and my debt is holding us back, he would always correct her, saying, it’s not your debt. It's our debt. When we got married, it became our debt. I love that.

And the second thing is that all the time they were in debt, where they couldn't buy a house, they couldn't afford to buy a house because of the debt payments, they gave.

And they gave generously. They tithed. They had a saying, they said, we're going to give 10% of net until we're out of debt. And then they switched it to the gross.

After they got out of debt, they looked back and realize, if we had used the money, if we had not given, we had bought the house we wanted to buy, looking back, it was perfectly time to be the height of the housing bubble. And so they would have bought at the absolute high in the housing market.

But by the time they were ready to actually purchase, because they gave and that delayed the process, they were able to buy at a much lower price than they would have otherwise. So all that to say, I think God's heart, God's design for us, is to live generously. And I think the instruction, the disposition is to be, as you said, to live generously.

Kurt Sauder: Yeah. “For God so loved the world that he gave…”

Matt Bell: Absolutely. Right.

Kurt Sauder:  And there's something powerful that when we give something that's near and dear to our heart, and if you have some, for most people, money is near and dear to our heart. I mean, for the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil, you know? And so we, so one of the ways that we counter that is by giving.

Matt Bell:  That’s right. And again, the principle of the increase, if there is no increase, if you're out of work, that's a season for you to be receiving.

Kurt Sauder:  Amen.

Matt Bell:  But if there is an increase, you know, even if, like I said, even if it's a very small actual amount, I don't think you want to miss the opportunity to worship in that way.

Kurt Sauder:  Any last encouragement to our listeners regarding finances, finances, and money, and in the midst of COVID?

Matt Bell:  I love the idea of not wasting a crisis. I don't want to sound callous to someone who really is struggling right now. I don't mean that to be insensitive. So hopefully the things we said earlier about someone in a situation like that could be a help and encouragement, but for people that are still working and such, it's so easy to when things go back to how they’ve been, and I'm convinced we'll get through this eventually, it's so easy to forget and just go on and not have learned anything from it. So I think this is a really important time to be seeking the Lord in prayer and asking, what is it about the way I've been doing the whole money thing, since we're talking about money, that really needs to change and not just now, but from now on.

Kurt Sauder:  Would you pray for our listeners?

Matt Bell:  Sure. Heavenly Father, thank you that you, the God of the universe, care for us, for each person listening to this show. And Lord, you know, everybody's needs.

I pray that you would be a great and tangible source of encouragement and help to those, especially those who are struggling right now. And for all of us, Lord, please help us to hear from you, to not just go back to how things have always been, but to hear what you would have us take from this. And as Kurt stressed, since we’re talking to men primarily, and because we're called to the unique role of leadership, help us to lead our families well, to lead in love as my wife has encouraged me to embrace that stance. I love that, to lead in love. Would you help us do that, that you might be glorified and that our families might be well taken care of. We ask this in Christ's name. Amen.

Kurt Sauder:  Amen. Matt, where can our listeners reach out to you if they have questions? How to get your books?

Matt Bell:  Sure. Soundmindinvesting.com would be a great place to start

Chad Russell:  And if you know someone who needs to hear this — not pointing a finger at them need to hear it — but needs to be encouraged, would you share the podcast with them? We'd really appreciate that. So, as we said at the beginning of the show, is Jesus is the Lord of your life? And then, is he the Lord of your money? Keep that in mind. Thank you for listening to Solid Steps Radio.